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Speaker A: Foreign. Hey, I’m Sachi Cole and you are listening to icymi or in case you missed it, Slate’s podcast about Internet culture. Kate is off vacationing in the uk. So this week you have me. I’m a culture writer for Slate and the co host of scampflancers. So I. You might recognize my dulcet tones. Now, normally I talk about Ponzi schemes and financial fraud, but today I’m here to talk about another scam. Heterosexual marriage. Indeed. We are talking Dax Shepard, Kristen Bell, and the scourge of the husband who seems to hate his wife. There are so many of them. And here with us to single handedly change the country’s divorce rate overnight is Melanie Hamlet. She’s a journalist and TikToker and YouTuber who’s written for the Washington Post, Harper’s Bazaar, and Slate. Melanie, welcome.

Speaker B: Thank you. And those are some big shoes to fill. But if I can make people divorce after this. I mean, the ones that.

Speaker A: No, no, all of them.

Speaker B: I must disclose that I’m married though, so that’s.

Speaker A: Well, there’s time.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that’s true. I may change my mind.

Speaker A: You can do it again and again. You don’t have to have just the one. Okay, well, before we get into today’s episode, I want to ask you guys a quick favor. If you love listening to icymi on Spotify, take a second and hit Follow on the podcast show page that makes sure that new episodes are front and center in your feed. Plus, if you found us through Spotify’s yous Daily Drive Mix, keep in mind that Spotify mix is going away on March 15, so be sure to follow us now to keep getting our episodes all year long. Easy, right? It’s literally the least you can do for me, your close personal friend, Sachi. Okay, that’s all the housekeeping, Melanie. Let’s get into it. I actually sing your song about Kristen and Dax every morning in the shower. I find it really affirming.

Speaker B: I hate my wife. I hate my wife. I hate this woman so much. She made me marry her. Marry me.

Speaker A: I’m wondering how and why you decided to address their relationship via song.

Speaker B: Well, actually, it’s interesting. It just kind of like most of my creative stuff, it kind of came organically. I. I’ve been talking about them and not them the people, but them the brand. Yeah, for over, I don’t know, almost three years now probably. And I’ve got hours of content about, like the examples of how toxic this relationship seems to be based on what they Continue to give us against our will. And on YouTube, I just started, like. I just started making songs at the end of my videos as a way to, like, encourage people to write comments while they’re kind of. It’s all like an outro kind of like. And then they got more and more fun to make, and now I’ve just. Then I started just posting them on Instagram and then they started blowing up, and I was like, oh. Cause I used to. I’m an improviser by trade at the ucb. So I was. I literally just threw a bunch of pictures together and just hit record and, you know, blew on some instruments and, you know, and just. I literally do that all the time. I improvise that. That was not script. And then it blew up and I was like. And then Krista Bell, not to get ahead of myself. She actually thinks I spent hours on that song. I’m like, that is offensive to me. I literally did this in five minutes. But anyway, I also assumed you did.

Speaker A: Okay, so to give some context, the song I’m talking about is the one you made and performed on Instagram. It was about a now infamous post Kristen made on Instagram last year for their 12th wedding anniversary. Here’s what she said. Quote, Happy 12th wedding anniversary to the man who after an episode of Dateline once said to me, I would never kill you. A lot of men have killed their wives at a certain point. Even though I’m heavily incentivized to kill you, I never would. So you write this song, and then Kristen Bell fires off in your comments. And this was around Thanksgiving of last year. And this came back on our radar because you were interviewed for an article that came out in the cut called I Love My Husband who Hates Me. Why do you think people are so interested in their relationship and whether he does hate her or not, I feel a little parasocially invested in this, frankly. I agree with you. I think a lot of men hate their wives. But what is it about this guy and whether he hates his wife?

Speaker B: Well, first of all, they overshare more than any couple I can think of. They’ve just kind of almost made themselves the spokespeople of marriage and relatability and all this stuff. And it’s like, okay, that is their relationship is very relatable to many women and cishet relationships, but in a bad way.

Speaker A: Yeah, it’s a scourge.

Speaker B: And people have even commented in my. Especially when all this happens, people have said that they used to admire them as a couple, and once they Started deconstructing patriarchy and really decentering men. They realized that that couple helped them live in their delusion longer, and now they think that couple is toxic.

Speaker A: Well, Kristen Bell and Dax Shepard are far from the first straight couple to act like they want to kill each other every day. But why do these couples keep getting married in the first place? When we come back, why are women marrying men who hate them? And we’re back. So, Melanie, I want to talk more about these women married to men who pack them dog food for lunch.

Speaker B: So I forgot my lunch today, and I asked my husband to bring me lunch. So let’s do an unboxing.

Speaker A: We have a bag of dog food because you’re my dog. Why do you think women keep showing us on TikTok or on Instagram or even in our real relationships how rotten their husbands are?

Speaker B: Yeah. So I think there’s a few things coming on, and it kind of depends on the person. Obviously, there’s some people who are just rage baiting to build their platform, and I have no tolerance for them. Right. But they do it and they know they’re gonna trigger us, and then they. Whatever. So there’s. There’s a small subset of people who are doing that. Then there’s other women who they are learning in real time, maybe because they’re not in community with. Because I forget that I am in a very different community than a lot of women. All the women in my life are super independent, and also they call me on my crap. And they. They don’t co sign the lies I tell myself. And that, I think is key. And that’s actually what got me out of an abusive relationship myself, is because they stop. I would. Yeah, I’m a comedian, man. I’m like, ha, ha. You won’t believe what he did today. And I make jokes and they’re like, they stop laughing because they, you know, and they start. I felt more and more isolated in that relationship because they were just like, they don’t want to hear. But I knew they’d be there if, when, and if I was ready to get out. And they absolutely were. And not everyone has that group. A lot of people, especially maybe if in their more religious, super religious, like, fundamentalist kind of places, then everyone in their community that’s. This is normal. And so then they, like, one day they’re bored and they’re at their kitchen table and they just hit the record button on TikTok and they’re like, la, la, la, la, la. And now they’ve got women who are not in their community, commenting, being like, he hates you. You know, and they’re like, what? And I know that they’re. To me, it makes perfect sense, even though it’s annoying for us for them to always follow up with the video saying, no, no, my husband’s great. We are just.

Speaker A: Every time. It’s like, every time, every time, you don’t get it. This is our sense of humor. But I feel like, also, I feel like a lot of women, a lot of straight white women in particular, they bond with each other.

Speaker B: Oh, absolutely.

Speaker A: Kind of despising their husbands. That seems like part of it, too.

Speaker B: Yeah, that’s absolutely part of it. And that’s the thing is, you know, I learn a lot from the comments on my videos. And also, I’m in community with and mutuals with and follow amazing content creators like White Woman Whisperer and delusional influencers who really helped me understand whiteness and white women in particular and what we do. And that one of the things I’ve realized from learning from them and then seeing it play out my comments is that, like, white women especially are very attached to being a victim. That is part of our shtick, you know, like, that’s just, like, our thing. And it doesn’t mean we’re not victims of patriarchy, but, like. But we stop there. And that’s why I called out Kristen Bell, because I’m like, all right, you know what? Cause everyone’s like, yeah, but she’s in an abusive relationship. I’m like, she could be still causing harm. Right? And that’s what I had to sit with in my own relation when I was in that DV relationship. The hardest part was realizing that even though I was absolutely a victim of this man and almost died, I gave him a good image. People thought he was safe because he was with me. I lied about him by either omission or just outright lied. I almost caused. I did cause harm in my community because other people associated with this man because of me. And so I. Forgiving myself for putting my community in harm’s way, even though it doesn’t mean I’m not a victim as well. I had to own that. And white women were not really like, that’s not what we’re. We’re not great at that is owning our s***. Am I. Am I allowed to cuss on here? Yeah.

Speaker A: Well, I hope so.

Speaker B: Okay. Okay.

Speaker A: Well, I. I mean, we talked a little bit about this. This. This thing that happens on TikTok where a woman will post something about how mean her husband is. And then make a second video justifying his behavior. And I do feel like women have to speak for a man’s legacy or his decency more than men have to speak for a woman’s. I see. It sounds like you maybe had a little bit of this in your relationship. It seems like women have to explain their men away and explain the behavior and usually to other women.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, women are the best PR managers ever. Like, that’s all we do is. And not just like our partners, maybe our dad, maybe their co worker, our friend. We’re always, you know, but especially because, like, one of the things I didn’t really quite realize, like, connect the dots, is that whenever men do something awful, usually the women and children, because they’re dependent on them, suffer the consequences more than the man himself. Right. So, like, if he cheats, everyone’s like, ah, well, whatever. But, like, if she leaves, she’ll be judged. If she stays, she’ll be judged. Because the women and kids are, you know, systemically dependent on these people who have the most power. And so, like, a lot of women, I think their reflex. Besides, maybe the other stuff that I’ve already talked about is if you attack their man and every. Especially if they, if they’re not working, they don’t have. They don’t. They don’t have an easy way to get out of that. They are literally, like we say, like, you’re fighting for their life in the comments. They are literally fighting for their life. It feels like life and death. Because to admit that this man hates you and you’re in a terrible marriage, your whole brand is on the line, your financial, your security, like, what are you supposed to do? Leave them?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Well, some of them never even thought about that. Right. So to, to admit, to even open that crack in this cult of two is like, some women are not ready for that. And other ones, some of them who follow me and literally make content about it, have said that because of the comments on their videos. There’s one in particular. She’s amazing. I love following her. She realized in real time on TikTok that she was in a really toxic marriage. She’s. She’s divorced now, and she said that I was that woman who was making these videos. And she’s hearing from people who she’s not in the direct community with. She’s hearing from some random feminist woman in France who’s like, I don’t know. I think, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like, they’re getting feedback.

Speaker A: This feminist woman in France with a southern accent.

Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, do I have a southern accent.

Speaker A: I thought I was. Well, you just did.

Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, that’s right. Whenever I, whenever I do impressions of people, it comes back. I don’t know why, but I like it.

Speaker A: They’re all from Tennessee. That feels right. But I mean, it does feel a little like some, sometimes these women talk this way about their husbands and how much they hate them because they do want some accountability. And it feels like a tricky balance for an audience member. You want to tell this girl the truth because she is almost asking you, but I always feel nervous about is she safe?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: If we tell her the truth, is she safe? And I guess, what does it. How many strangers have to tell you that your husband hates you for you to hear it?

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I think it takes a while. Like, I don’t know if there are any examples of a woman who does a video and then gets that it goes viral. Hundreds or thousands of comments of women being like, dude, you deserve better, get out of this. And then they’re like, okay. You know, like they almost always, either they say nothing or they delete the video or they do a follow up defending him. But the way I see it, it’s like planting a seed, right. It’s going to take a while for that thing to grow. Um, but you’re just planting seeds and maybe they’ll never get it. And some, you know, some people, they, they don’t know any other way. And some people actually over identify with their pain and, and like, don’t act. They don’t actually want to change. And so they’re used to other women who also hate their husbands. And so they’re like, what’s the problem? And then you got women who are like not married or divorced or in happy marriages or whatever who are like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, and also it’s. It like that that article. Is having, you know, is having a boyfriend embarrassing? Having a husband is embarrassing?

Speaker A: Oh yeah, the Vogue article. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Like, like the culture has finally shifted. I said this two years ago on a tick tock. Like, I’m like, I was. It’s kind of funny. I’m like, wow, that’s interesting. I’m going to be on both ends when I, I mean, I was, I didn’t even start dating seriously till 36. All right. So I went all through my 20s, all through my 30s, up until 36, no boyfriend, every wedding alone, blah, blah, blah. And honestly, I was doing the whole like 4B thing accidentally. Like before it was a thing, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I’m very proud of my younger self in that regard. But two years ago I was like, well, when I was single, decentering men wasn’t a thing. I still felt like a loser. I didn’t want to date, but I still had like a lot of self judgment. I had a lot of judgment from society. And I was like, what? The funny thing is I never ever thought I’d get married. I’m literally like, you know, I got period blood all over my wedding dress when I tried it on. Like that’s how little I give a about this stuff. I haven’t thought about it. Like I’m just kind of like a gremlin with. And I don’t even wear lipstick.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And so, and so like everyone’s shocked that I got married and I’m like, how crazy is it that I’m actually married now? And now it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s tracking towards being married is not cool. And I love, I love that we’re heading in that direction. But I’ve already been through being single not being cool. So I can handle being married and have that stigma too. But I’ve much rather we go there than stay in the, like get married. It’s the best thing ever.

Speaker A: Yeah. You know, well, it, it feels like there are some women who are engaged. It’s like a kind of compulsory heterosexuality. And it’s not necessarily that they’re queer. I don’t know, maybe they are, but, but these men are just so flawed and husbands are so weak and yet they still feel like they need to have one. Yeah, it’s like he’s an accessory, but it’s like an accessory that hates you.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, I kind of see it also as like this. It’s the same kind of pressure to have children. You know, I’m also child free. I have never wanted to be a mom, but I, when I was like 37, 38, 39, those are very hard years for me because even though I, I cannot imagine being, I have nothing in any fiber of my being has ever wanted that I was still like, should I have kids? Like I. So it is, it is so conditioned in us that this is what you do. You get married, you have kids, this is like your duty and there’s something wrong with you if you don’t do it. So even those of us. So I really feel for women who don’t know if they want kids or who really do want them. Because even though I never wanted them, I still went through a phase of like I should, am I sure I don’t want to do this. Am I going to regret it? You know, all this stuff, it. So to me, it speaks to how deep that, I mean, it’s brainwashing for like, it’s. I don’t even know what else to call it other than patriarchal brainwashing. It’s like. And every time I watch any movie from childhood, I’m like, God, no wonder I dated such losers. Is like, every movie that I’m watching is like, it, like the dramatic tension is based on him sucking and her finally being like, yeah, but he’s nice, you know, or whatever.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so the more I see it everywhere, the more I’m like, well, okay, I don’t judge myself as much because everything has been pushing me towards sex, entering men and being a mom and all that stuff. And I’m not even religious.

Speaker A: I don’t even have that component also working to like, right, get me to do this thing, you know, when women complain about their husbands, it’s usually rooted in some sort of failure service or some task or like, he’s so annoying. When men hate their wives and when they bond with each other about hating their wives, there is something kind of cruel and often violent about the way they talk about it. Do you think we’re getting a glimpse into a kind of locker room of sorts of how, how these men bond with each other about their wives? Is it worse when we’re not there?

Speaker B: Well, it’s interesting because having worked, you know, I was a whitewater raft guide, a ski instructor in the climbing community. I was in the, I worked in the film industry in New York, pretty much every jaw. And in comedy, it’s very, I’ve always been in male dominated spaces, but especially like whitewater rafting. Oh, man. Like I, I was working with men all the time. I was also, I’ve always been like a tomboy, for lack of a better word. And so I was. And so I ended up being a cool girl. And so I, I realize now I was like, almost like a, you know, like a spy. Right? Because I’m around these men, listening to how they talk and because I was cool and one of the guys, they said all kinds of stuff in my presence. And so, you know, I, I know, like, I mean, even in the film industry in New York, I remember one day during break, all the guys there, one of them literally said, yeah, like, screwed this chick last night. It would have been so much better. She had a bag over her head. And I was like, okay. They really do say this stuff like, like, is this, like, what they say is worse than our imagination? And so I have that perspective. And then also, it’s been really interesting because, like, my husband brags about me all the time, and he also. I get a lot of insight about how men talk about their wives from him telling me, like, at work, his old job, all of the men bond over how much, you know, their wives suck, and they talk about their. And he never did. He was always like, that’s weird. I love my wife. And they’d be like, he’d, like. They started feeling, like, weird.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And this one man refusing to participate or laugh changed it because men. Men are, like, you know, been conditioned to be so kind of, like, fall in line and, like, follow the leader that they all started competing over whose wife was the best eventually. And I was like, are kidding me? Now you’re bragging? Because it’s cool.

Speaker A: We’ll return to my conversation with Melanie Hamlet after this final break. I really hate when a man’s punchline is just, like, fake misogyny, because it sounds the same, like, the real one. And I’m not interested in trying to parse out the difference, but it feels like a lot of women in straight relationships are kind of primed to accept this behavior from men because it’s cloaked in this joke. But I never really know what the joke is. Is the punchline, like, punching down on your wife?

Speaker B: This doesn’t really answer the question, but something else that happened is like, they. This, to me, speaks to how much patriarchy relies on men bonding over being better than women and above women is because on the other hand. So my husband and I went out to meet a friend of mine, and we were going to meet her new boyfriend, and this guy doesn’t know anything about me. He meets my husband, and, you know, they start chatting. And of course, Anthony’s always just like. He can’t help but brag about me. I don’t know, like, this is what he does. And he was like, oh, yeah, my wife, she has YouTube. He goes, YouTube? Yeah. For some reason, when you say YouTube, people like, wow, a YouTuber. What does she talk about? It’s like, oh, you know, like patriarchy and decentering men and stuff. And immediately, this man just met my husband, and it’s like, well, you mean, you know, like patriarchy. And. And he keeps trying to get Anthony to talk about me. They have just met, like, the expectation to throw the. Your. Your wife, who. I mean, we don’t have kids, but, like, everything. And this person under the bus For a stranger, in the first conversation, I was like, that’s insane. That, that, that’s how deep it is. That is how much they bond. I think some, I don’t even know if they believe what they’re saying half the time. I’m not sure they all hate their wives, but they feel like. But, but they’re indoctrinated enough and it’s that whole, like, what is it? Homosocial is the word. Like they, they need male approval so bad. And I also worked with teenage boys doing backpacking trips on 23 day backpacking trips and that I. So I’ve, I’ve worked a bit intimate in male spaces for a long time, seeing how they interact with each other. And it kind of radicalized me and enraged me and also made me more empathetic towards them because I’m like, d***. Like, y’ all are so afraid of each other and so desperate. You’re like, they’re like, pick me’s for other men. They’re so desperate for approval, they’ll do anything to be accepted. And if that means throwing their wife, their kids, whoever, under the bus where. I think when women do it, it’s like a response to, you know, being exploited. And we’re like, ah, you know, well, and it’s.

Speaker A: And it’s different because if we are dependent on them, then it’s like making fun of a king.

Speaker B: Like. Yeah, exactly. Like there’s a whole. You can’t. There’s always the, the power structure makes it so they’re never the same. You can’t compare the two. But I think women a lot of times think, you know, and, and I grew up in the south, right. So southern white women are so good at hating their husbands, making fun of them. And, and I realized that actually, you know, feminists tend to actually respect and like men more than women who are like, you know, doing the more traditional thing because they literally like think they’re dumb. They like talk s*** about them and whatever and they bond over, I think, you know, feel. I will say this as somebody who was very attached to the victim mentality for a while. You do get something out of that. And that is a sense of moral superiority.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And feeling like, you know, thinking that your husband is dumb and even though he’s got power over you and Allah, like, whatever. I’m like, he’s dumb. And like, you get something from that. I think it’s like a way that women have adapted. If they don’t actually want to change their situation, then they figure out a way to Survive it. And one of them is to feel, you know, like, morally superior. And he’s just a little boy. A dumb little boy. And it’s like, really, like, you want to be partners with a dumb boy? You want to f*** a boy? Like. Like looking down at your husband like he’s a child is so f****** weird. Yeah. And yet that’s what we’ve been taught to do, you know?

Speaker A: Yeah. It’s interesting. I feel like women look at men a lot like boys. Yeah. And then there are these guys who look at their wives kind of only in service archetypes. So they’ve only known women as sisters or mothers or aunts, and then now wife. And it feels like they’re mean to their wives the way you’d be mean to a little sister. Like, I’ve thought about this with Dax and Kristen. It’s so childish. Does that feel familiar to you? And how men seem to interact with women and why are they, like, pulling our pigtails and calling us fat and, like, shoving us into lockers?

Speaker B: You know, I. I’m the. Why, I think, is just that. That male supremacy. And also, I think they take out whatever their. Whatever powerlessness they feel to their boss or whatever. I always draw it back to. Back to the future. You know, a lot of these guys are like, you know, we’re nerds or just whatever. They’re, like, s*** on by other men or beat up. And if they can have that little kingdom where they are the man in that in their home, they got power of the kids, power over the wife. Right. Then they have, like, an outlet for their rage against whoever’s above them. And I kind of see it as the same way, like, white women, instead of taking it out on the f****** guy who’s putting, like, the man who literally has his boot on our neck, what do we do? We go after people that we have power over and make their lives miserable. So I think men do that to us. This. You think about the military. I know a lot of people in the military. Like, DV is really big in the military. It’s the same thing. It’s like. It’s that ranking order. Like, well, I’m getting it from this person, so I’m going to. I need to have power over somebody too, you know?

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. There was a video on TikTok that went a little viral a while ago. It was guy who did not like his girlfriend’s perfume and wanted to break it so she would stop using it and hit it against the sink and then broke their sink.

Speaker B: And so she posts this video to be like, ha, ha, look at my silly.

Speaker A: Look at my terrible boyfriend who wanted to break this thing that I like and instead destroyed a piece of our home. What do you think is the border between silly, goofy, funny male behavior and abuse? Because the comments in this were filled with women saying, this is abusive behavior, destroying your stuff. It’s not funny. There’s no joke in here. It’s just abuse. How do we find that line if we are in a relationship like that, where he is making those jokes and maybe we can’t see what the line is and where it is?

Speaker B: I mean, I kind of have reframed how I even think of abuse lately, because the kind of. The more I. And I think being in a relationship with an abusive relationship helped me see things so close on the micro level that then I could understand them more on the bigger level. And I started to realize that, you know, that we think of abuse and violence as physical, right? But, like, other things are super violent. I mean, I’m a white woman from the South. Like, the bless your heart is like shooting someone in the face, right? Like, the way, like, passive regret, like, silent. There’s violent silence is a big thing in, like, white households in the South. And like, whoa. Like. And when my husband went to the south, he’s like, I feel like I’m wearing a straitjacket. This is terrifying. I feel like I’m in a horror movie. And I was like, yeah, this is the silent violence. And so the. I. I don’t really. I can’t determine what is, like, DV or not, but I do know that if someone is exploiting you and they know they’re exploiting you, that. That can’t be love. I’m sorry, but I. If. If. If you are exploiting me and knowingly doing that and not wanting to change, then best case scenario, it’s exploitation. But it could be abuse. But to me, the threat of violence is, like. Is a huge red flag. And if somebody is smashing, you know, like, punching walls and like, reminding you that they could kill you all the time, or like Dax saying, I’m highly incentivized to kill you, just reminding of you of that is a threat, in my opinion. Yeah.

Speaker A: There was a story in the cut a little while ago about these men who hate their wives. You were quoted in it. But there was one commenter quoted in that story was somebody who left a comment on a TikTok video from one of these women about her husband who hates her. And this person wrote you 100% deserve what you tolerate. Do you think that’s true for these women? Do they deserve it if they tolerate it and show it to us?

Speaker B: No, absolutely not. So, but what I. What I. And this is where the Kristen Bell is conversation isn’t about her. It’s really about a much bigger thing. And I just use her as an example, is that we tolerate it, because a lot of times we literally. We don’t know any different. Like, I don’t think anyone deserves abuse. I tolerated things that I didn’t realize weren’t okay until a friend was. Like, what? When I recalled the story. Right. I mean, think about any child who grows up in an abusive family, or they watch their dad do that to their mom and maybe their grandpa. Like, and then they. And they’re. And then they’re socialized under patriarchy. Watching all these films and everything, kind of reinforcing the general message is that men are like, the s*** and that we’re supposed to just center them and everything. Like, how is that person going to know anything else? And for me, having examples in my life of, like, really healthy love is one of the only reasons why I realized certain things were not okay is because I had nothing to compare it to. So I never think anyone deserves it. Does that mean that they have, again, like, to go back to what I said before by staying in that relationship? You know, if they can leave and they don’t, then maybe they don’t want to. Maybe they are so afraid of being alone that they would literally rather tolerate this. And, you know, like, I feel sorry for those people who don’t know how to be alone or would. But at the end of the day, like, I don’t think anyone deserves what they get. But they also. Not everyone can choose to get out of these things as easily. They don’t have the resources. Maybe they’re in a church or, you know, like a cult. I mean, I kind of see. I see marriage as, like, it’s supposed to be a cult, and you can be married and it be healthy, but the way we’re conditioned, it’s literally like there’s a cult leader and then there’s all the people who fall in line and they do anything to save the cult, you know?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I don’t know if I’m making sense with this analogy, but.

Speaker A: Okay, that’s the show. We want to thank Melanie Hamlet for joining us. You can follow her work on Instagram and TikTok. El Hamlet. We’ll be back in your feed on Wednesday, so make sure to subscribe that way you never miss an episode. Leave a rating and a review in Apple or Spotify and tell your friends about us. To see all the visuals referenced in today’s episode, you can follow us on Instagram @ICYMYPOD and you can always drop us a note@ICYMILATE.com ICYMI is pretty produced by Vic Whitley Berry. Daisy Rosario is our senior supervising producer, Neil Lobel is Slate’s executive producer of podcasts, and Hilary Fry is Slate’s editor in chief. See you online or not.