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Speaker A: This episode may contain explicit language. This is Karen Feeding. We’re three friends with kids who get together every week to talk life, swap advice, and keep each other completely sane when we muddle through this weird and wonderful thing called parenting. What’s up? I’m Lucy Lopez. I have another podcast, the Mamacita Rica. And I’m also mother to Amelia, who’s 15, Avery, who’s 13, and we live in Miami, Florida.

Speaker B: I’m Zach Rosen. I make another podcast as well. It’s called Weirdly Helpful. I’m dad to Noah, who’s 8, and Ami, who’s 5. We live in Detroit.

Speaker C: I’m Elizabeth Newcamp. I write the homeschool and family travel blog Dutch Dutch Goose. I’m the mom to Henry, who’s 13, Oliver, who’s 11, and Teddy, who’s 9, and I currently live in Honolulu, Hawaii. We’re here to talk about the ups, downs, and everything in between when it comes to parenting. Every week, we answer your questions, share our own parenting triumphs and fails, and try to make this feel like the kind of conversation you have with your friends.

Speaker B: And today, we’ve got a pre tween who’s done a 180. This mom and daughter duo had been super close, but that tightness has turned into eye rolls and attitude. Is there a way to weather the preteen years, or does this mom just need shelter from the storm? We’ve got thoughts.

Speaker A: Before Elizabeth and I start reading our rosary for this parent, we want to share our triumphs and fails. Does anybody want to give us a little sneak peek on whether they’re having a triumph or fail this week? Zach.

Speaker B: I went to a bar with my child. More to come. Oh, gosh.

Speaker A: This.

Speaker C: I’m here for this.

Speaker A: I can’t wait.

Speaker C: Could go.

Speaker A: This could go so good. Stick around. We’ll be right back. Hey, welcome back. And it’s time for triumphs, fails, and a shot with Zach. Zach.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: You took your kid to a bar. Please explain whether it’s a triumph or fail.

Speaker B: I think it’s a triumph. She didn’t drink. Okay, let me say that first. This past weekend was my birthday. I just turned 42, and we.

Speaker A: Happy birthday.

Speaker B: Thank you. For my birthday, I wanted just to do something real chill, just the four of us. So there’s this great restaurant in our neighborhood that we biked to. It’s like three quarters of a mile away, and we had an awesome meal. Noah and I actually split a tasting menu, which blew her mind. She’s never done that. She tried all sorts of things. So that was really fun. And then afterwards, next to this neighborhood restaurant is a soft serve place. And right next to that is a bar that is, like, very family friendly. And so the kids got soft serve and Ami was cold, so Noah biked him home. And then Noah and I just went into the bar. Cause it was like 40 degrees out and she had her ice cream and I got a glass of wine. And it was like dark and still a bar, like family friendly, but still just like all adults except for like one other kid. And it was just this surreal thing just to be sitting there shooting the s*** with my daughter, you know, just like looking at people, talking to people, you know, I was. I was on my second glass of wine, which for me is like, I’m tipsy again. We bike, so don’t worry. And I hope it was a kind of time machine of what it’ll be like, you know, when she is older, when we can just like go out as two grown people and just talk about our day. There’s something, you know, there’s just some vibe shift when you go into a bar. Like, I talk to her all the time, of course. Right. But something about just like being shoulder to shoulder and like our back facing the door and just kind of looking out. And it was just absolutely lovely. It was like a really wonderful way to end my birthday night. Just the two of us having a drink. Slash, chocolate vanilla swirl.

Speaker A: I love it.

Speaker B: It was really nice.

Speaker C: I wonder if for her, we don’t know she’s not here. Was it just another, you know, place that you guys were hanging out together or I wonder if she was like, ooh, this is like an adult space. Like, but, you know.

Speaker B: Yeah. I think that she’s immune to the boundaries at this point. Like, she’s really comfortable in adult exclusive places and kid exclusive. And I think she really likes being like the only kid. I think she. I think. I’m sure she felt cool about that, but it’s not like so different from, you know, a dark restaurant. So her mind wasn’t blown. I think I was more.

Speaker C: Well, yeah.

Speaker B: Cause you emotional about it than she was.

Speaker C: Yeah, I do feel like, wow, this is an amazing triumph. This is like set up for a very funny situation coming up. Like, at some point she is going to tell the story of you taking her to a bar in a place or space in which you’re gonna have to, like, back. You know, like when your kid’s telling somebody something, you’re like, wait, Well, I mean, it was a bar. Like, only I was drinking. It’s like a family friendly. I just feel like the amount of times my kids have been telling some kind of story about us being in a brewery or something like that, you know, and you’re like, there’s some missing context.

Speaker B: But yeah, shout out to the bar. It’s called Two Birds on the east side of Detroit. And they’re very family friendly. They have a kid Noah’s age. They’re actually on the same baseball team, and they make it just totally fine for kids just to walk in and hang out with their parents. It’s great.

Speaker C: I love this.

Speaker A: I love it.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Elizabeth.

Speaker C: Well, we’re going to take a triumph, but it has just been a very stressful two weeks. So we have had a really big storm. So there’s something here called a Kona low, which is basically where the weather is coming from shifts and has stalled over the islands. And I think, I suspect, based on text messages, like, in the last few days, that this has been covered by the news because people have been checking in. But the storm has, like, devastated the islands. It’s really complicated. Like, I’ve been through other storms, and longtime listeners will remember us. We’ve evacuated from hurricanes and we’ve been in earthquakes. We’ve been in all this stuff. Yeah, this is just so different. I should say we have been totally fine. We. The place where the military bases is part of a harbor. As a result of that, we are just kind of automatically sort of sheltered and just like the infrastructure that exists for us is very different than what exists for a lot of the island. There is also so much trauma coming up for the locals here because a lot of what is happening goes back to sort of things that happened during the colonization of Hawaii. And we had a dam breach which caused a lot of the damage. There was already damage, but caused even more damage on the north shore of the island. And that dam is owned by the Dole Plantation, which is sort of one of the original forcers of the colonization that happened here. It’s just a really good time, one to spend some time learning about Hawaii and how the island became part of the United States. Like, this was a fully functioning country, super complicated. But as a result of that, plus sort of where we are in us, like there’s no federal aid coming, or if it’s coming, it’s not coming quickly. This is certainly not the post hurricane recovery that I saw in Florida. And that is not because I think some of the stuff we’ve seen out there really tries to point like, well, the Community steps up more other places. The community here is incredible. The amount of, like, how the community surges in here even when they’re suffering. So, for example, like, towards Honolulu didn’t take a big hit in sort of the first wave of the storm. So a lot of the collection of items and things have been happening there because, I mean, this is the other thing. Like, there’s no. If the supplies are not on island, they have to get here. And so getting the right supplies here. So there’s a lot of right now redistribution of what people need, right? So if you have this stuff, get it to a point so it can get to the people that. That need it. Because we have to wait for ships or planes to come in with other stuff. Like, we only have what we have on the island. But we were collecting stuff at this Honolulu drop point to bring over because a lot of the roads have washed away. And, you know, all of these islands are volcanic, so just like, really high ridges. And then that’s how we’re getting these flash floods. Well, one of the places where we were collecting yesterday just had a flash flood. And the flooding itself doesn’t last that long. But it just. I mean, we’re talking mud and cars and houses. These are. A lot of. These are, like, island houses. I think when people think of Hawaii, you think of the beautiful, huge, you know, homes here. But most people live pretty, like, modest island life. When you drive through the neighborhoods here and you come from the mainland, people are sort of surprised at how it looks. So anyway, just kind of balancing. So one, we’ve been basically stuck inside. Schools have been out because the roads haven’t been safe to drive. We’re trying to be. Not in the way. We’re trying to be helpful. We also understand that it’s a very complicated time for native Hawaiians, right? Like, even our presence and then some of the, like, trauma, because a lot of the damage to the land has come because of the way we treat the land versus the way they treat the land. And then if you go on social media, you’ve got a lot of tourists mad that their spring break is canceled. And it’s really tough because it’s like Hawaii is really dependent on tourists due to. Again, that’s all part of this kind of colonization situation that happened with the, you know, plantations and then the leaving of the plantations. You’ve got people here just, like, really mad or going and doing really dangerous things. When we don’t have, like, the medical resources right now because we’re trying to treat the population that’s here. Who had, you know, stuff from their homes being flooded from cleanup. Obviously, people get hurt during the cleanup effort. It’s just a really complicated. Plus, we’ve just, like, been stuck inside, like, even just can’t go out. You know, a lot of our life here is built on being outside, being at the beach. Like, all of that is not. We have a brown water advisory nearly when we get too much rain, our sewer systems and everything overflow into the ocean, causing the. And just like the runoff. Like, literally the ocean around the islands is brown just because of all the runoff. So you can’t really be in the water. It’s just a really complicated time. But we had these couple just, like, lovely moments in that that I think show how much community we’ve already built here and just been plugged in. And one is that we had this brief period, so just been like, rain. This is like some of the heaviest rain I’ve ever seen. And then on and off, these wind conditions that feel very much like a low, a class one hurricane, like, they just kind of blow through trees snapping over all of this. But we. We had this, like, brief spot and like, our whole street was, like, messaging and checking in on each other. And then they were just like, I think this is. Let’s go on a big street walk. And so we got all the kids and we’re like, just walking together and checking on neighbors and helping move big branches. And it was just this moment of, like, really amazing community. And also just helping. I have some of the older kids on the street and so making sure, like, we’ve taken some of the younger kids for an hour just so that parents can have a break. And our kids have gone over there to babysit while people have helped with some of the cleanup. I think overall, like, I’m just really amazed at that. And now watching the same group kind of organize like, okay, I, you know, one of the parents works kind of out in the community and coming back and saying, this is what they need. I’ve, you know, someone else is like, I’ve got a truck. What do we have? Do we have water? Do we have extra medical supplies? Do we have this? And then, like, I’m going to get it out there has just been, I think, you know, net positive for us. Even though I think the island, like, it’s. Like I said, it’s complicated and it’s terrible. And the recovery time is just going to be long. It’s going to be really long. I’d really encourage, if anyone wants more news on this, Hawaii Public Radio is like, fan frickin tastic and is just churning out amazing content, and they’re out talking to people and the people that are actually helping and the organizations all, you know, run by native Hawaiians, and I just really encourage you to get your news from them. So.

Speaker A: Sorry.

Speaker C: That’s a downer. But the good news is it’s an amazing demonstration of community.

Speaker B: Totally. No, this is where community shows up the most.

Speaker C: So sorry for the.

Speaker B: Don’t apologize.

Speaker C: How are you?

Speaker A: I’m good. I don’t know if I have a triumph or a fail, to be honest. I just. Last week was hard. The kids were on spring break, and three of their spring break days, they went up for competition for states in Tampa. I was unable to take them.

Speaker C: This is for theater?

Speaker A: Yes, for theater, for competitions, yes.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Neither Gino or I could take them because we both work. So my cousin Michelle, who’s a retired Miami Dade police officer, was like, I’ll take them. And they’re very close to Michelle, so they were like, yay. And it was wonderful, you know, because, like, the first, you know, weekend of spring break, they didn’t do much. They just hung out. Monday, we did a. What I call, like, you know, a spring break field trip, where we just walked around all around Wynwood and had tacos out there and ice cream and looked at all the art and hung out and all the things that you do when you’re in Wynwood. It was exciting. It was so much fun. And then they went off on their trip, and then they come back on Friday, and they are exhausted. They’re super tired. Avery is beyond overstimulated. So kind of spent all of Friday and Saturday, like, making sure that Avery was okay, because it’s a big trip not to go without your parents, even. They were away for us for two nights. But that’s a lot for someone like Avery.

Speaker C: It’s.

Speaker A: It’s a lot. And then Saturday, she was like, can I meet up with my friends at the trampoline park? And, you know, we. I’m like, of course. Go. She’s like, I only have two days of spring break. And then something weird happened where I think. And I don’t know if this is maybe a different topic for another one of our awesome shows, but I think, like, we’re so open with them about our monthly budget that our kids are acting like we’re broke. They’re verbalizing it in a way that it’s borderline disrespectful. My go to which Is really not healthy, I think, is like, hey, that’s not on the budget. Hey, that’s. That’s not what I budgeted for this week. Like, we’re not doing that. You know, I’m gonna call it a fail, because I still am trying to figure out how to properly communicate to them that we’re a family that sticks to budgets, you know? So for, like, example, like, this week, fun time budget is we have something planned for Saturday with our families, like, our big family. And then Sunday, we’re gonna go to a brunch. Okay, well, the girls wanted to do all that this past weekend. I’m like, yeah, that’s not in the budget for this week. Like, I’m not doing that. And they wanted to go have tacos for dinner. And I’m like, yeah, that’s not in the budget. And then Amelia’s response to that is, I have money. I’ll pay for it. And I’m like, that’s not what this is about either. Like, I’m not doing that. Like, in the next few weeks, she’s gonna need that cash for things that she has to buy for school. I mean, it is what it is. And I explained that to her, but she’s kind of, like, throwing it in our faces now. Like, well, I have money for that. Well, I can do that. And I’m like, that’s not what.

Speaker C: Because the money has become power, Right?

Speaker A: Like, right, yes, Jay Z.

Speaker C: Well, no. Like, well, no. I just see two things happening, right? One, there’s there. Which we talked about before. There’s, like, money anxiety that happens. This has happened to us. We had to change how we communicated it, because we passed on the anxiety to them, even though we’re totally fine. We’re just talking about using money. Well, it’s not like we can’t afford things. It’s about making choices. So, one, we had to change that. But one of the things that we had to change was not using the budget as the reason we couldn’t do things, even if that were true. And just saying we’re not doing that this week, like, almost like, the kids don’t need to understand why you’re not. You’re still in charge. And so whether it’s budget, whether it’s time, whether it’s whatever, right? Because what that says is, like, I hold the money. I’m in charge. The money is in charge, but the money’s not actually in charge. You could go do those things, Lucy. You know what I mean? But you’re saying, like, we make this Budget. Because we have these other priorities, these longer term priorities, these other. Right. And so I think instead of saying, it’s not in the budget this week, you can just say, we’re not doing that this week.

Speaker A: Growing up in my house, I knew that there was no money. Like, I could see it.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Very obvious.

Speaker B: Yeah. So it’s confusing when you do have some.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And.

Speaker A: Oh. And when you do have some and you’re like, yeah, we’re not using that for that. Like, that’s just not gonna happen. I’m sorry. And in our household, I’m just like, yeah, you have no idea. Like, this is. We’re. We’re good right now. We don’t need to spend that money for tacos tonight. We’re having tacos next week. That’s what we’re doing. So I just need to learn how to. Well, both Gino and I, like, we’re really. We’re. We were beating ourselves up this week. I’m not gonna lie. We were, like, terrible to each other. Like, just like, what are we doing? Are we not communicating this right to the girls? We’re terrible parents. Their spring break was. They only went three days. And you get that. You get a little jealousy because Avery and Amelia’s friends are off doing, like, I don’t know what. And, oh, her mom picked her up at Tampa. That the thing. And then they went straight to Orlando to Disney or so. And so went straight to, you know, after States, they spent a whole three days at St. Augustine. And I’m just like, well, good for them. I’m like, I don’t.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I don’t know what to tell you.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like, I’m not doing that here. Like, that’s not happening. You’re Your spring break. You made a commitment to your program. You went to States, you come home, and now we’re gonna do what we got to do, you know, 100.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Well, that kind of took. What I’m saying. Like, it’s not all money. It’s also time, priorities. It’s also commitment, which is why I think you can. You are allowed to just say no. No. Nope.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Have you done a financial literacy thing with them? Like an actual. There are some great online programs, and I can send you some. My mom actually did one with Henry, and it made a huge difference. Like, an actual. Not just like, a budgeting exercise. Like, they did an online financial literacy course together that talked about all of this. And I think just giving him the context of what a complicated situation it is. Right. Like, even just talking about compounding interest and all of this stocks just like having some of that language and understanding the complication took so much of his ability to say. I mean, I’ve told stories about him using, like, he used, he has this dog walk. You know, when we were in Colorado, he had this dog walking business and he, because we were homeschooled, he made like way too much money. He had way too much buying power in the house. He like bought this pair of antlers off of someone. It was a giant mess. But I think that now, yeah, like, he like went out and used buying power with other children. Well, right. And you can’t, you can’t buy and sell antlers. The whole thing was a, was a, was a mess. But I think that having them have some understanding of like really how the system works, that it’s not just like cash like that when we save, there’s all of these things that we’re doing with the money. And when you, you know, like, these are the things you need to be looking at. This is how life actually works. Helped. They need to have some of this education in a way that is like, practical. And that will also help you, I think, take the power out of like, well, we have money, we get to make the decisions and just be like, that’s really complicated and you’re lucky that we handle it for you, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah. I’m gonna use that money to go to the bar with Zach and Noah.

Speaker B: And Noah and Noah.

Speaker C: Excuse me.

Speaker A: We love to hear from you. Those emails, the voicemails, the random shouts on social, please know how you’re doing. And speaking of, last week on the show, we answered a question about teaching boys to cry just like the cure. And in this episode we talked about the media that never fails to get tears flowing. And did y’ all have some great recommendations? Zach, can you please read them for us?

Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you so much for, for chiming in. This is a really fun one. Kristen says My family, kids 3, 7 and 8, have all bawled during Marley and Me and the Wild Robot. Ditto. Ditto. Like uncontrollable non stop tears. Including my husband who rarely cries and my 7 year old son. Yeah, totally, Kristen. Michelle recommends Grave of the Fireflies. She watched it once as a kid and even now she can’t watch it again fully. She catches snippets from the algorithm occasionally and it immediately triggers balling on the spot. Katie says, I remember years ago I read an Empire article about the best movies to make men cry. Right up there is one that sets me off Cinema Paradiso. Over time, I’ve decided it’s not a great movie, but it still gets me when the director watches a montage of movie kisses that the old projectionist was forced to censor totally. Let’s be real, this is a lot to do with the Morricone soundtrack, but the one I really wanted to mention was Spartacus, which was number one. I’ve never seen it. When I told my dad who cries extremely rarely but not never about the list, he got this misty look in his eyes and said, ah yes, spot a kiss. And sat quietly for a while. Bless him. Allison sent in the song it’s all right to Cry from Free to Be you and Me, sung by football star Rosie Greer as a Gen Xer. This album has a huge influence on her conception of the world. While parts of the album feel a bit dated now, she thinks this song stands the test of time. The main message is crying gets the sad out of you and listener Emily took her 11 year old to see the stage musical version of Wonder and says it was pretty awesome to be in an audience of absolutely every parent sobbing. It has since closed, but she suspects it may be on Broadway and or touring soon. And the movie is also great, but the communal in person emotion felt special. And speaking of theater, Andrea took her 12 year old daughter to see the Notebook, the musical a couple of weeks ago and sobbed through something like 2/3 of the show. It was incredibly good. Her daughter said already at intermission that she was wrecked and her final conclusion was quote, so, so good. But I’m going to need a little while before seeing that again, unquote. Much of the show is the elderly couple grappling with the wife’s Alzheimer’s, singing in harmony with younger versions of themselves. Wow. The staging and lighting were also incredible. Didn’t know there was a Notebook musical.

Speaker C: I didn’t either. They showed the Notebook here for Valentine’s Day for free at the base theater and I went actually with Jeff and a friend of ours was in town for work so with him and I was like oh, I hadn’t seen it in a long time, but I was like oh yeah. I remember this being a cute love story slightly problematic and instead I sobbed through the whole thing about the end of life. Like I was like why are we watching this on Valentine’s Day? This is a great list guys.

Speaker B: Thanks for sending all your contributions, our care and feeding family.

Speaker A: And if you want to see anything more recent that’ll definitely make you cry, please go see Project Hail Mary.

Speaker B: You Saw it.

Speaker C: Oh, did you see it?

Speaker A: It was amazing. It was amazing. We saw it on Sunday. It was beautiful. Inspiring. The best way for me to describe it is that I got tricked into thinking I was kind of watching like, not an adult, like adult, like, you know, rated R movie, but more so, like the previews to me are kind of a little misleading. Like, I don’t know, like I was like, preview center.

Speaker B: Be this, this day and age.

Speaker C: Did you read the book? Did either you read the book?

Speaker A: No. So I, when I went to go see it, I was like, this is a family movie. So it’s beautiful. Beautiful. Ryan Gosling did a great job. He was so funny in this film. The whole movie is really inspiring and has a wonderful message. It’s beautiful. Highly recommended. I looked over and all of us were crying on certain scenes of the movie. So it’s a great movie. If you want to.

Speaker B: I’m definitely going to go.

Speaker A: It’s really great. Your kids are gonna love it. My children are still talking about it. They loved it. We love sharing your advice and recommendations and if you ever have something you want to send our way, you know where to find us. You can email us@careandfeedingpod slate.com you can come find us in the Slate parenting Facebook group. Or you can bring us up at 646-357-9318. We’re going to take take like one more quick break, but we’ll be right back in a minute with some pre tween drama. Stick around. Hey. So welcome back. It’s time to jump into our listener question. Elizabeth, would you mind reading this for us?

Speaker C: Sure. Dear Karen feeding. I need advice on how to navigate the pre tween years. My oldest daughter just turned nine and promptly turned on me. We used to be super close and she shared everything with me. She always wanted to be with me and never had an attitude or behavioral issues. Recently, however, I’m getting a lot of eye rolling and pushback when I ask her to do even simple things like use hand sanitizer when she gets home from school. She wants her father to take her gymnastics, do her nighttime reading with her, or tuck her into bed instead of me, which she never wanted before. We used to have mother daughter dates all the time, but now she says she doesn’t want that and wants to be alone or invite over friends instead. When I asked her why she doesn’t want to hang out with me anymore, she said it’s because I quote, treat her like a baby and that she doesn’t like that. I try to tell her things at gymnastics, like to give eye contact when her coach pulls her for one on one advice or ask her what she’s just read after reading time, etc. I completely understand that this kind of thing is normal as she gets older. My question is, to what degree do I stop trying to quote mother her and tell her what to do? I want us to be close and have a good relationship, but she is still a child and often needs correction or intervention. I don’t want to be an overbearing mother and I really don’t feel like I am one. But she obviously feels like I am correcting too much. I do make a strong effort to also give praise and tell her when she does things right and tell her how great I think she is. So is this just how it is with tween girls? Should I learn to let things go? And how do I know when it’s okay to give correction versus when to not help? Pre tweening, pre drama. You’re not pre drama. Sorry.

Speaker A: I would love to be the first one to give my opinion.

Speaker C: Do it.

Speaker B: Hit it.

Speaker A: I am a mamacita to two. A 15 year old and a 13 year old. And the biggest lesson I’ve learned is to trade control for connection and. Oh, it’s easier said than done. You’re right. You’re right, mom. Yeah, the world is on fire. But I’m telling you right now, trade that control for connection. And here’s what I mean by that. The great Tina Fey once said that she has to treat her teen tween daughters like the office crush. Here’s what she means. You know when, like you have a crush on somebody in your office that you’re kind of just like, you have to like, like super cool.

Speaker B: Like, you know, you stop by their desk, all your cards on the table.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And you just like stop by this crush’s desk and you’re like, hey, a bunch of us, a bunch of us are gonna have lunch. Do you, you don’t want to go? Do you want to have lunch with us? Like, do you wanna, do you wanna hang out? Like, that kind of vibe is the vibe that you have to give your daughter instead of let’s go lunch. Like, let’s, let’s us. You have to be more like, hey, we’re. I’m gonna grab a smoothie. Do, do you want to come? Should I bring you one? It’s like low pressure.

Speaker B: Don’t be too thirsty, roach.

Speaker A: Exactly. The lower the pressure, the higher chances she’s gonna lean in. On that relationship that you’re trying to create with her.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: Not saying do it all the time, but try to. Because I feel that that approach is what really has helped me with my daughters in their teen years. And I’m convinced that teenagerhood does not start when they’re 13. I think they start acting like teenagers as soon as they’re 11, 12 years old because they want to act older, because they see the older, older kids in school or maybe cousins or brother or sister.

Speaker C: Lucy, I want to jump on that to say that, like, the modern puberty age for girls is eight. It’s eight and above. It is very possible that your daughter is moving through the first stages of puberty. Keep going. I just wanted to say what you feel is backed by science.

Speaker A: Right? Also, pick your moments. Pick your moments. And I know. So, so easy for you to say. Lucy Lopez. I. Not everything needs feedback. This is like the biggest argument in my house between my husband and I because he wants to have feedback on every single little thing. And I’m looking at him and I’m like, stop, stop. Just let it go. Let it go. Let them figure it out. Sometimes that attitude, even the way they talk back to you, let them reflect on that. Let them think about that and come back to you and prove to you that all this time you’ve been a good parent, you’ve been teaching them how to communicate to you in an effective and mature, respectful way. They’re going to figure it out. They will. But the. The whole, like, quizzing her, like, you don’t have to do that all the time.

Speaker C: No, I think you. You actually have to, like, reframe how you’re parenting. If she were 13 and this were happening, your brain would be there. But because she’s 9, you’re thinking, like, oh, she’s still a kid. There were two books that I think, for me, really changed how I thought about my kids at this age. And the first is going to be finding the Magic of Middle School. And we actually did an interview with Chris Baum, who is the author of that book. And it is an amazing way to, I think, for parents to reframe what a middle schooler is, how you’re going to change how you interact with them and how all of this behavior is the same as when your child starts to walk and starts to do things. Like the fact that she’s doing all of this are signs that you raised her in a healthy, attached home. She is incredibly close to you. That is why she is choosing you to push back on and So I think that it reframed for me, like, oh, this behavior is a. Is demonstrating the bond that I’ve built. And also that I’m raising a child that is going to go off and have a successful life on their own. They have to have this break from me. And so how do I change how I parent? And like Lucy said, that’s about picking your bat. Which things does she actually still need guidance on? Which to me, like, this book is going to encourage you to like, make a list. And so is the correction on one of the key things that’s important to us. So a value. Did they do something that is. Does not match, like our family values? Kindness, honesty. Right. Is danger involved? Is what they did something that will affect their safety or is it something that they just can’t take care of? Right. Like I hold money or something else that has to be used to fix the problem. Unless it’s in those situations we use this little phrase like connect, not correct. And so unless it’s one of those, I just think this is a moment of connection, not a moment of correction, particularly if they’re upset. And I think you have to start using phrases like, are you telling me this because you just need someone to talk to? Right. Or are you telling me this because you need help? And it also means sometimes accepting that they are going to sit in the car and not say anything to you and that you need to sort of get some other hobby. Like also pull away. Not in a bad way. But like, if she wants to be with dad all the time, great. Join a book club. Go do some more things with your friends. Like just know that it’s okay to be less. Less. Not like as a punishment, just less a part of her life. I also wanna recommend that you read the book this is so awkward. Modern Puberty Explained. Because I think it really does go through what is actually chemically happening during puberty, that it starts younger and that the influences that are going on. We also did an episode with those authors and we can link to both of those in the show notes. The episodes are great, but the books are really going to be your guideline. And I think that’s just a good place because you are feeling this friction because you need to go through a shift in your parenting.

Speaker B: Right? Because she’s shifting because she’s changing.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: You can’t stay the same. Your mothering is going to have to change with her. So it’s not like you’re choosing between mothering or not mothering. You’re still mothering but you’re not telling her what to do in certain instances. Like you were saying, Elizabeth, it’s really hard. I mean, Noah’s starting to go through the same thing, and Shira has to hold me back sometimes from getting too involved. Sounds like Geno and I have some similar tendencies with that. But first of all, she is going to pong back to you at a certain point. It’s not like she’s chosen your husband for the rest of her life.

Speaker C: Can I say that in a reframing? I don’t actually think she’s chosen your husband over you. She is pushing back on you because you are safe. Like, she is testing this new independence on you and not your husband. It’s like, your job is to be there and love her through that and guide her on the big moments. And, like, let your husband take that. And he. You know what I mean? Like, if he’s the bigger influence, let him do some of that correction at night, b**** to him about all the things, and let him figure out how to tell her that that is an okay shift of power. You are not going to lose her by doing that. You are going to lose her or break the connection by trying to hold tighter too tight.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And, like, it’s really instructive, these two examples that you did use about the reading and about the eye contact. Like, that is, you know, like, learn from that. Like, clearly, that doesn’t work. It doesn’t mean that you can’t step in in other ways. But, like, these are really. Like you were saying, make the list. Like, these are two good examples of, you know, reframe the way you talk to her about reading and, you know, model eye contact instead of telling her to. To have eye contact. Like, that’s. That’s her telling you, don’t do that. Like, listen there.

Speaker A: I don’t think it means you’re losing her. I just think that you’re being asked to grow with her, and that’s tough because you feel, as a parent, you’ve already done all the grow. You’re. You’re grown. You know what’s up. Nah, you don’t. And you’re not doing anything wrong. You just need a new strategy for your new girl that’s emerging out of her little cocoon. Believe it or not, all of it is new, and all of it is fun. She’s just. She just needs you a little differently right now.

Speaker C: Text your friends all the things you want to say. I don’t know. I feel like Lucy, that’s.

Speaker B: Instead of saying them to her.

Speaker C: You mean of what we text.

Speaker A: That’s. I’m constantly texting.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. You need the person who, you know, knows how much you love your child. So when you text them, you know, why can’t she just make eye contact? I’ve told her 400 times, and I’m watching her look away as her coach gives her. Right. That the person’s like, that is so fricking annoying. Right. But then. Then you don’t. Then when she walks over, you’ve already said it. You’ve already said. It’s like you’ve gotten it out of your head. And you can say to her, like, how did you did practice feel good today? Right? Because what she wants is to be able to come and say, like, think about your friends. Your friend if you’re with a friend, Right. Not that your child has to be your friend, but even a friend who wants feedback doesn’t want to hear. Like, when you see them like, oh, I saw you interacting with this person, and here are 12 things you could do better. They want to hear like, well, how did you. How did that feel for you? Did today feel good? And for them to say, like, no, coach just keeps doing xyz and I don’t understand. Right.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, and you could be like, gosh, that is. That is really hard. That is really hard. But do that by b******* to someone else.

Speaker B: Yeah. Like, I’m glad you. You reached out to us.

Speaker C: Yeah. You’re definitely not alone. I feel like this is something we’re going to get a lot of.

Speaker B: Oh, no.

Speaker C: Like listeners, 100%.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Fellow parents of teens, what advice do you have for this listener? You can email us at careandfeedingpodlate.com you can join the conversation in the Slate parenting Facebook group, which is off the chain all the time. Or you can call and leave us a voicemail at 646-357-9318. We’ll gather up your advice. We’ll print it, make a book, hand it out, and share it in a future episode. That’s our show. Subscribe, leave a rating and review and tell all your friends. And if you want more parenting advice, you can find Care and The column on Slate.com Care and Feeding is produced by Shana Roth and Rosemary Belstra. Micah Phillips is our video producer. Mia Lobel is executive director of podcast for Slate, and Ben Richmond is senior director of podcast operation.

Speaker C: I’m Elizabeth Newcamp. You can find me on Substack at Best Mom Friends and on Instagram at Elizabeth Newcamp.

Speaker B: I’m Zach Rosen. You can find me on Instagram at newzachary.

Speaker A: That’s M, U, Z A, C A, and I’m Lucy Lopez. You can find me on Instagram, which a lot of you have. Say hello on those dms. So thank you for that. Follow me on IG at the Lucy Lopez. Thank you so much for listening, and we’ll see you back here on Monday, we promise. Minimum eye roll.